Boundary Reorganization

[George Strange]

the discussion regarding reluctance to travel makes me think of my grandfather his quote was " you do not learn anything sitting in your own dung heap"the closest events to me are about 600 miles south or west,i have not been disappointed in any event attended and i think that anyone attending an event would learn something or impart some knowledge to someone else. everyone needs to give a little in order to gain a lot

george strange

 

[Randy Parrish CPF]

Australia and New Zealand is ONE chapter, keep that in mind. layful:

 

[Mike Kadlec]

The fact of the matter is that boundaries for chapters are a necessity. People in general need boundaries. Using proper edicate, minding your manners, are typical boundaries for us to use on a daily basis. The lines however are not necessarily cut and dried. They move around a little or are crossed back and forth to varying degrees yet not to extremes.


We need to look at this exercise, boundary reorganization, much like an artist working with watercolors. Unlike oils or acrylics, watercolor has a personality of it's own. Characteristics that are not to be controlled by the artist. They will settle in areas that you may not expect and at levels that you don't always know. But the resulting color, texture, shape etc becomes a pleasant surprise adding to the finished artwork. If you overwork it however, you get 'mud.' That's what politicians do with laws. They overwork them, make hard and fast rules, then they end up with mud and no one is happy. With the chapter boundaries we need to set parameters/boundaries but with the flexibility to allow the finished product to serve each individual member for their best interest. Let the members mix, overlap, change the landscape, without 'running off of the paper.' This way the end result will be like a beautiful painting that can change on it's own when the business or industry environment changes and never be outdated.


I think that having boundaries for chapters is necessary but they should be easy to cross over when circumstances warrant it. PPFA mission statement says 'PPFA will...provide forums contributing to...a sense of community.' Making it easy for members to mingle, associate, and work with other members of their choosing would be one way to fulfill that mission. You can't have a hub or even a chapter for that matter without leadership so if there are hubs they will naturally form by the members who take on leadership of the chapter. I don't think we need to or should make a rule for hubs but rather just let them happen as leadership takes shape and allow members to gravitate to the area that best serves their needs and desires. Let's stick to the mission.

 

[Ellen Collins MCPF]

... I already had a commitment, and those commitments were made long before I had an idea there a chapter meeting to be held. ..

Now THERE is an excellent point. One of the biggest failures of chapter leadership (with a few chapters excepted) is planning far enough in advance. A month or two or three in advance just doesn't work any more. All of us are spread thinner and thinner, so getting on our members' calendar before the Basket Weaving Conference or the Sausage Grinding Symposium will certainly increase our attendance numbers.

 

[Gregory K. Norris CPF]

Ellen makes an excellent point here. Even though we are a small chapter and most of us are in regular contact throughout the year, last year we waited until 8 months before to set the date for our competition. A combination of planned medical treatments, weddings, vacations, etc. meant that we could not find a weekend where all of the board members could be there. Until last year, we have always had nearly 100% attendance from the board.

It is a tricky thing. You can't plan too far ahead because judges and educators can only commit so far in advance, but if you wait too late, you can't get the best attendance. I don't know if it will help anyone else, but we "reserved" a small group of dates that we would all protect until we finalized our plan.

 

[David Waldmann]

The fact of the matter is that boundaries for chapters are a necessity. People in general need boundaries.

So people have been saying. But I don't see any facts or even anecdotal evidence to support that. As has been mentioned, there are many chapter based organizations that operate on a hub based system. For quite some time I was a member of the Barbershop Harmony Society. There were members belonging to neighboring chapters that lived in the same town where my chapter was located because the other chapter had a different outlook. Some chapters focused on having fun, some on historic preservation of the style and yet others on winning competitions.

It's been mentioned by supporters of the new boundaries that this would result in fewer but stronger chapters. I believe that if we had a hub system with membership allowed in any chapter that we would have stronger chapters because people would be where they want to be. There seems to be fear that if members are not restricted to predefined chapters that some chapters will be weak because members won't choose them. I say if a hub based chapter is weak because members choose not to go there, the hub was chosen incorrectly. It could be because of geographic location, availability of leadership or anything else. But being forced to be part of a chapter you don't want to be in is not going to make the chapter stronger just because of additional members.

I believe that hub membership will result in natural selection of strong(er) chapters. However, National will have to be reactive to changes and prepared to add or delete chapters as the need arises.

I don't get the database "issue". A database is designed from the ground up to allow changing of data. Is it really that much harder to change the chapter someone belongs to than their name if they get married? I mean really, if the proposed new boundaries go into effect and it's as hard as I'm inferring, how in the world are all the (presumably hundreds if not thousands of) affected members going to be changed?

The current style of rigid chapter membership is like a dictatorship. I think we need a democracy.

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

... I don't get the database "issue". A database is designed from the ground up to allow changing of data. Is it really that much harder to change the chapter someone belongs to than their name if they get married? I mean really, if the proposed new boundaries go into effect and it's as hard as I'm inferring, how in the world are all the (presumably hundreds if not thousands of) affected members going to be changed? ... .

As I understand it. There isn't a "chapter field." There is a table of zipcodes that associate a zipcode with a chapter.

 

[Randy Parrish CPF]

I believe that hub membership will result in natural selection of strong(er) chapters. However, National will have to be reactive to changes and prepared to add or delete chapters as the need arises.



The current style of rigid chapter membership is like a dictatorship. I think we need a democracy.

This is a one time event, each chapter is a incorporated identity, there is a legal expense to doing this. I think everyone wants people to be able to choose which chapter they belong to, provided they have a reason, for instance they might fall along a board of two chapters. I think everyone wants avoid some kind of hopscotch game by someone thinking they can be clever and game the competition process. That is why both chapter must sign off on it. After all the only major things that is called for, anyone entering the competition is required to enter in their chapter and to serve on chapter board you have to be in that chapter. Other wise you can go to any chapter event you like. How is that a dictatorship?

 

[David Waldmann]

As I understand it. There isn't a "chapter field." There is a table of zipcodes that associate a zipcode with a chapter.

Then how do members get reassigned? Earlier it was claimed that a member can change chapters if both chapters agree. Must be a nightmare if it's based on zip codes...

It was implied earlier that Access is the database in use. It's not too hard to add a field, and it would make things easier even if geographic boundaries are used to determine chapters (see above).

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

Then how do members get reassigned? Earlier it was claimed that a member can change chapters if both chapters agree. Must be a nightmare if it's based on zip codes...

It was implied earlier that Access is the database in use. It's not too hard to add a field, and it would make things easier even if geographic boundaries are used to determine chapters (see above).

IDK how they manage a single person changing chapters. When I saw that posted, I was confused.

IDK who said it was Access?
It isn't what you think when you think a traditional database.
It's a "trade association management system."

 

[Mike Labbe]

The member management system is called IMIS, which is a popular product for organizations such as this one. There are several customized things that tie into it, so changes are like ripples in a lake. (Fields are exported to several other systems including Findapictureframer.com, the email distribution system that is used to send email blasts to chapters that don't manage their own email lists, etc)

PPFA is also not the only sub organization sharing this database, under the PMA umbrella. As a result, any changes have to respect the needs of/consequences to the sister trade organizations. Unfortunately, it's not as easy as flipping an immediate switch - and requires a careful study of the possible result/outcome. (with paid consultants)

I think most chapters these days are using third party email systems such as mailchimp or constant contact, to stay in contact with their members. If anyone outside of our geographic area wishes to receive news and information about our chapter happenings, there is an OPT IN link www.neppfa.com.

Mike

 

[Robin Gentry MCPF]

In the past when someone ask to switch chapters the process would include the entire zipcode involved. From my experience what occurred when the request was made the chapters involved were contacted if they were okay with the switch the members in that zipcode are then contacted and ask if they were in favor or against the switch. If majority vote is in favor and the chapters agreed the zipcode alignment was changed. So it was not a single member in most cases. But usually it was not a large number of members involved.

 

[David Waldmann]

IDK who said it was Access?

It wasn't said, but I inferred it.

Certainly someone in our membership must have used Microsoft Access in a previous life enough to overcome the membership list and database issue.

 

[David Waldmann]

IDK how they manage a single person changing chapters. When I saw that posted, I was confused.

Hmm. I thought you thought it was a simple matter, as you earlier said

If we could get "EDIT ACCESS" to the database, maybe we (The Membership Committee?) could handle the "request for chapter reassignment" and subsequent DB update?

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

Originally Posted by Cliff Wilson, MCPF

If we could get "EDIT ACCESS" to the database, maybe we (The Membership Committee?) could handle the "request for chapter
reassignment" and subsequent DB update?

Hmm. I thought you thought it was a simple matter, as you earlier said

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply simple. Just that I thought I could do it.

I am a little less fearful than Mike that the changes could be made.
But, there is a lot of fear and past expense associated with modifications.

 

[David Waldmann]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply simple. Just that I thought I could do it.

Fair enough.

I just can't get away from the feeling that we are stuck in a dictatorship, or at the very least a bureaucratic nightmare.

I asked on a different thread and never got an answer: What exactly are we getting out of the association with PMA today? Or are we locked in with a contract for X more years?

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

Fair enough.

I just can't get away from the feeling that we are stuck in a dictatorship, or at the very least a bureaucratic nightmare.

I asked on a different thread and never got an answer: What exactly are we getting out of the association with PMA today? Or are we locked in with a contract for X more years?

bureaucracy, but to be fair, not intentional.
They mean well, there is just a lot of disparate entities to make happy.
Think Municipal government.

Although it was way before my time, and I've never seen a document or any paper trail, it is my understanding that they bought the organization. Essentially, PMA owns PPFA. There is no "getting out."

 

[Ellen Collins MCPF]

IDK how they manage a single person changing chapters. When I saw that posted, I was confused.

That might have been me. In my naivete, I might have thought that Bob Shirk changed chapters. It could just as well been that Shippensburg PA (whatever their zip code is) changed chapters. The fact that Blue Mountain Gallery happens to have been the only PPFA member in Shippensburg could have given me the impression that Bob changed instead of the zip code.

It isn't what you think when you think a traditional database.
It's a "trade association management system."

...and that is why many of the good suggestions that have been made are more difficult in practice than what would appear at first. This may not continue forever, but it is a limitation at the present time.

 

[Gregory K. Norris CPF]

I admit I am naive. But couldn't this be turned around and a more versatile database be created for PPFA members, and the information necessary for the PMA database be uploaded from it?

Wouldn't this be less expensive than paying someone to tinker with the PMA database to get us the information we need?

 

[Cliff Wilson MCPF]

I admit I am naive. But couldn't this be turned around and a more versatile database be created for PPFA members, and the information necessary for the PMA database be uploaded from it?

Wouldn't this be less expensive than paying someone to tinker with the PMA database to get us the information we need?

So, you would train the people in Jackson to deal with two different systems and know when to use which one? And, get cross trained so when someone was on vacation they could handle the other person's job?

They are reasonably trying to keep a single system for all their members and sub-groups. You are a PMA member when you are a PPFA member.

If I were managing the organization, I would not support a separate system for a sub-group.