Mira Bishop
Frequent Poster
I think judges should be listed (known) beforehand. Each judge expertise and experience as well as the area of judging should be posted.
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Didn't enter for a FREE RIDE......
- Thread starter Nicole Ohme
- Start date
I think judges should be listed (known) beforehand. Each judge expertise and experience as well as the area of judging should be posted.
We always try to have one judge who is new to us each year, and have a small group in driving distance who sort of rotate. Usually, we are having to pay an accredited judge to travel from one or two states away. In more prosperous times, we could usually time a board visit with the competition. Some years we have lost considerable money by always having a currently accredited judge in the mix.
There would be some good points of having the same judges for multiple years in terms of consistency of the judging. But that also might be a negative too since the same qualities about that that are attractive might also be detrimental in terms of the international competition.
I am still frequently surprised by now differently chapters approach events. Randy mentioned recently that their chapter has never paid judges. We have always paid an honorarium in addition to travel expenses. If you had asked me last week, I would have said this was a requirement. I don't think we as a group talk enough about brass tacks.
There would be some good points of having the same judges for multiple years in terms of consistency of the judging. But that also might be a negative too since the same qualities about that that are attractive might also be detrimental in terms of the international competition.
I am still frequently surprised by now differently chapters approach events. Randy mentioned recently that their chapter has never paid judges. We have always paid an honorarium in addition to travel expenses. If you had asked me last week, I would have said this was a requirement. I don't think we as a group talk enough about brass tacks.
Bob might not have judged in the last four competitions, but the list I think is:
Me, Approved judge
Kimberley Briel, Accredited judge
Harry Gaston, Approved judge
Dave Smith, Approved judge
Kris Picket, CPF with at least four competitions judging
Bob Warshawer, Approved judge
I think we've had three different secretaries?
Really a pretty good mix I think.
You may be shocked to hear that there are some uber competitors who will 'frame to the judge' just to gain another blue ribbon. When I got deeper into judging, I was appalled to learn that there are cheaters among us, who will do anything to 'win'! I just can't understand how one could be proud of an award gained by chicanery...
Oops, I think Bob is actually an Accredited judge.
We have never paid judges, but depending on the timing of the rest of the day we may buy them lunch.
When national used to have directors travel, we would use them as judges if appropriate. (Not all board members are judges). Depending on who we've brought in as an instructor and what the day's schedule looks like, we sometimes have used our planned instructor as a judge.
To Ellen's point ... When I was competing, I learned pretty quickly what each judge was looking for. We never announced our judges, but I could have designed to the judge, if I knew which ones were judging.
I have judged with a lot of different people over the years and it is very interesting how differently people look at things and what they think is "expected" for a competition piece.
We have never paid judges, but depending on the timing of the rest of the day we may buy them lunch.
When national used to have directors travel, we would use them as judges if appropriate. (Not all board members are judges). Depending on who we've brought in as an instructor and what the day's schedule looks like, we sometimes have used our planned instructor as a judge.
To Ellen's point ... When I was competing, I learned pretty quickly what each judge was looking for. We never announced our judges, but I could have designed to the judge, if I knew which ones were judging.
I have judged with a lot of different people over the years and it is very interesting how differently people look at things and what they think is "expected" for a competition piece.
Since we are such a diverse group, it is not surprising that the judges and the things that catch their eyes vary greatly. It keeps things interesting. And while I'm not really surprised at Ellen's observation that some will "frame to the judge," it is something I never thought about.
I will probably never be a great competitor because I am only interested in challenging myself for competitions. I always try something that is new to me. It is the only time during the year that I am framing for myself without worrying about the clock or profit.
One thing I have observed over time is that any time I have wondered just why something about the competition was done the way it was, if I asked questions I learned that there was a solid basis for it that resulted from careful consideration by the CB. It isn't perfect, but it isn't for lack of trying. There are just too many variables for competition to be a simple process.
I will probably never be a great competitor because I am only interested in challenging myself for competitions. I always try something that is new to me. It is the only time during the year that I am framing for myself without worrying about the clock or profit.
One thing I have observed over time is that any time I have wondered just why something about the competition was done the way it was, if I asked questions I learned that there was a solid basis for it that resulted from careful consideration by the CB. It isn't perfect, but it isn't for lack of trying. There are just too many variables for competition to be a simple process.
Robin Gentry MCPF
PPFA Coordinator 2020+ Past President 2013-15
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I think this is what will make you a great competitor. You are competing for the reasons I use to compete. It is nice to win and go to International competition but it is better to challenge yourself and learn in the process.
A note on the Judges: You do not have to pay the judges. This is determined by each chapter. In the past in our chapter we have reimbursed for travel expense, but we always try to get judges close by so we do not have to do this, we usually hold our competitions in conjunction with a class so we have given the judges the class at no charge and or we buy dinner. If you are having an event you may have some one that would love to attend and they can be your judge. They are traveling anyway so see if you can work a deal.
And it is not required to have an Accredited or Approved Judge at the chapter level, only suggested. Be sure to read Section 3.3 in the guidelines about chapter judges.
Could you elaborate on that?
It pains me to tell you...
A framer received a critique for an improper mount, which visible. When it came to International, the mount had been corrected. Too bad for the competitor that one of the original judges had gone to convention, too.
As to 'framing to the judge', trust me. Without naming names I know of at least one instance where a judge's preferences concerning color and proportion were known. When that judge was named as head judge for the competition, it was plain that some of the pieces were framed to the judge's taste.
That's all I am saying about that.
A framer received a critique for an improper mount, which visible. When it came to International, the mount had been corrected. Too bad for the competitor that one of the original judges had gone to convention, too.
As to 'framing to the judge', trust me. Without naming names I know of at least one instance where a judge's preferences concerning color and proportion were known. When that judge was named as head judge for the competition, it was plain that some of the pieces were framed to the judge's taste.
That's all I am saying about that.
Well that's just plain against the rules, and it sounds like the framer was called out, punished, and hopefully disqualified.
I suppose in any competition there's going to be some of that. It's a way to win points I guess, but it's an uncreative and soul-less way to go about it. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen Project Runway or Top Chef judging sessions in which a contestant was called on the carpet for sacrificing his or her point of view and artistic vision to please the judges. It almost always fails.
Having multiple judges and rotating them I suppose is about the only way to avoid something like that.
He was disqualified. The point is, he tried to cheat to win.
Cathy Coggins
Frequent Poster
Question: Is it normal that board members cannot participate?
Our Chapters competition was okay, 5 pieces, but every last one of them was a Board member. Did we do something inappropriate?
We did have judges that, obviously, were not those competing, but it was tricky drumming that up. We are hoping for far better support next year, but we just are standing up, much less walking or running.
One of our competitors was a qualified judge, and she wanted so much to compete (I am glad she did, as every time she an I talk "framing", instead of PPFA stuff, I always learn something new, she is a gifted framer). She did graciously offer to judge and not compete if we could not get enough support.
Just wanna make sure we are on the up and up.
Cliff, is that just a NE thing or...?
I get what you're saying and I think keeping the judges a secret is the way to go.
But, "Designing to the judges" might actually be more analogous to designing for our customers. The trick is to make something look good, while designing to the target person. Actually an interesting and important exercise.
National Board members are not allowed to compete. It's a ruling from PMA legal.
Chapter board members can and do compete. Heck, if chapter board members couldn't compete I don't know that there would be any entries!
Mira Bishop
Frequent Poster
I don't get this Cliff, why? Transparency in my mind is a better way to go. This would avoid "trust me judges are qualified" and eliminate stories about "old boys" thing. I would very much like to know who they are and read their short bios.
I don't think it would be very practical at all or in the spirit of the PPFA to keep their identity a secret. I would suggest not publicizing who the judges will be and asking them not to mention it in advance though.
No problem at all listing whatever you want to know about the judges after the competition.
The problem with doing it before the competition is the temptation to "design to the judge."
Which, although I pointed out an interesting side effect of that, gives too much of an advantage to "more frequent" competitors.
Trust me, if I know who's judging, I could, after ten years of competing/judging, design to take advantage of certain judge's proclivities.
A new competitor or someone not as "tuned in" wouldn't be able to do that.
I think not knowing who the judges are until after the competition makes the competition more fair.
Maybe I should have been clearer. I just meant secret until the competition.
The judges should be announced and publicly thanked when the competition is complete.
I'm good with that.
Mira Bishop
Frequent Poster
This is why we shouldn't have same judges each time. We need much larger pull of people judging. We have similar pieces win more less each time. Same people rotate, same school of taught, similar taste and the result is the same. It would be good to to bring in new and fresh people.
The very fact you and many others are familiar with some or most judges taste is good reason to make some changes.
Secrecy leads to controversy. Announcing the panel of judges ahead of competition and listing their credentials could be inspiring. This is how most professional competitions work.
It is quite clear something needs to change so more people would enter competitions.
